39 thoughts on “Britain Sounds Allies Out About Invoking NATO Treaty

  1. boomshiki March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    I get the idea that the whole point in this operation was to get the UK to envoke article 5 in an iffy situation so doubt could be cast on just how reliable the defence pact is. If the UK calls on its allies under article 5, and the US says no way, it proves to the world and potential new members that it can’t count on NATO for safety.

  2. HIP13044b March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Well this will be an interesting World Cup.

  3. wakka-wakka-wakka March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    If it is provable that Russia conducted a chemical weapons attack on British soil, the UK would be *entirely* justified in invoking article 5, or at the very least demanding the full support of NATO.

  4. TheAlbinoAmigo March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Blacklist the oligarchs. Freeze their assets. Cancel visas. Expel their ambassadors. Sanction their goods. Call on allies to do the same.

    The west needs to be firm on their stance against aggression, otherwise Putin will only continue to escalate as he has done for the past decade.

  5. alternate-source-bot March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Here are some other articles about this story:

    * CNN: [Russian spy attack nerve agent was rare, dangerous and sophisticated](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/13/europe/what-is-novichok-nerve-agent-intl/index.html)
    * The Guardian: [Nerve agent attack ‘clearly came from Russia’, says Tillerson](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-attack-clearly-came-from-russia-says-us-rex-tillerson)
    * Financial Times: [How the UK might take action over Skripal attack](https://www.ft.com/content/0ff58722-2623-11e8-b27e-cc62a39d57a0)
    * NBC News: [Tillerson says UK spy poisoning ‘clearly’ came from Russia](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/tillerson-says-u-k-spy-poisoning-clearly-came-russia-n856056)
    * in.reuters.com: [Putin faces midnight deadline to explain nerve attack on former spy to UK](https://in.reuters.com/article/britain-russia/putin-faces-midnight-deadline-to-explain-nerve-attack-on-former-spy-to-uk-idINKCN1GP0PC)
    * The Telegraph: [Front Bench: Is time up for austerity?](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/13/front-bench-time-austerity/)
    * newsweek.com: [Blaming Russia? White House Refuses to Name State Actor Behind UK Nerve Agent Attack—Unlike State Department](http://www.newsweek.com/white-house-refuses-blame-russia-nerve-agent-attack-842054)
    * Washington Post: [UK considers options in showdown with Russia over ex-spy](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/uk-considers-options-in-showdown-with-russia-over-ex-spy/2018/03/13/8ca54828-26a2-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html)
    * U.S. News & World Report: [The Latest: Chemical Watchdog Chief Demands Accountability](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2018-03-13/the-latest-russia-demands-samples-of-nerve-agent)
    * The Guardian: [Russia demands nerve agent samples in standoff with UK over poisoned spy](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/russia-demands-nerve-agent-samples-uk-deadline-spy-poisoning)
    * Washington Post: [Russia demands access to British investigation into nerve agent attack](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-demands-access-to-british-investigation-into-nerve-agent-attack/2018/03/13/db21c03c-2632-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html)
    * Boston 25 News: [Russia demands access to nerve agent in ex-spy case standoff](http://www.fox25boston.com/news/uk-considers-options-in-showdown-with-russia-over-exspy/715141620?utm_source=homestream&utm_medium=site_navigation&utm_campaign=homestream_click)
    * The Hill: [The Memo: British spy drama echoes through Washington](http://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/378047-the-memo-british-spy-drama-echoes-through-washington)
    * BBC: [Russian spy: Deadline for Moscow over spy poison attack](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43377856)
    * CNN: [Poisoning of Russian spy raises troubling questions](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/12/europe/salisbury-analysis-npw-intl/index.html)
    * Los Angeles Times: [Tillerson has confidence in British investigation linking Russia to poisoning of ex-spy](http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-tillerson-first-u-s-official-to-back-1520904803-htmlstory.html)
    * The New York Times: [Vladimir Putin’s Toxic Reach – The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/opinion/russia-spy-poison-britain.html)
    * The Denver Post: [Russia “highly likely” behind ex-spy’s poisoning – The Denver Post](https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/12/theresa-may-russia-behind-spy-poisoning/)


    I am a bot trying to encourage a balanced news diet.

    These are all of the articles I think are about this story. I do not select or
    sort articles based on any opinions or perceived biases, and neither I nor my
    creator advocate for or against any of these sources or articles. It is your
    responsibility to determine what is factually correct.

  6. autotldr March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.voanews.com/a/theresa-may-responds-to-russian-spy-poisoning/4296219.html) reduced by 74%. (I’m a bot)
    > "That also prepares the ground for Britain to follow America's example in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks on New York and Washington D.C. and invoke article 5 of the 1949 NATO treaty, which states:"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all" and that they should work together to 'restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

    > In a statement, he said: "We have full confidence in the UK's investigation and its assessment that Russia was likely responsible for the nerve agent attack that took place in Salisbury last week. There is never a justification for this type of attack – the attempted murder of a private citizen on the soil of a sovereign nation – and we are outraged that Russia appears to have again engaged in such behavior. We agree that those responsible – both those who committed the crime and those who ordered it – must face appropriately serious consequences.”

    > "Whatever measures Britain takes against Russia, what will really count is a realization from Washington to Brussels to Berlin, that a full scale strategy of the West is needed to show strength and resolve in the face of unacceptable behavior," former British foreign secretary William Hague wrote in Britain's Daily Telegraph Tuesday.

    [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/843qko/britain_sounds_allies_out_about_invoking_nato/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ “Version 2.00, ~295046 tl;drs so far.”) | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr “PM’s and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.”) | *Top* *keywords*: **Russia**^#1 **attack**^#2 **British**^#3 **Britain**^#4 **Russian**^#5

  7. kyperion March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Nerve Gas is actually no fucking joke.

    It is one of the worst ways to die because you literally lose all control of your bodily functions.

    This is because what old style Nerve Gas does is constantly fire off your nerves and muscles so that they go ballistic without your intent.

    This can result in these symptoms in order from least worrying to holy hell…

    Runny nose, blurred vision, weak limbs, constant dizzyness, increasing pain in the chest, loss of motor controls, extreme uncontrollable seizures, loss of breathing, and your organs just fucking stop.

    Now if this ain’t enough to scare you then this will…

    Unlike old Nerve Gas where you actually had a chance to survive if you were affected. New style Nerve Gas is like if someone mixed old style nerve gas with every known deadly chemical on Earth, and mated it with mustard gas.

    You will most likely be affected within seconds upon first contact, with all of the same symtoms above.

    If it goes off miles from you but the wind is blowing in your direction, you’re fucked. If it goes off above you, you’re fucked. If it goes off near you, you’re fucked. If it goes off near a city, then everyone in that city including you are fucked. If it goes off and you go back in weeks later, you’re fucked. Small amount got onto your clothes? Better go buck naked, cause either way you’re fucked. If it got on your skin, you’re fucked.

    It doesn’t care for who you are, when you were born, what side you’re fighting on, or if you even care about the war. If nerve gas detonates anywhere close to you, you’re fucked. And when I say close I don’t mean within a couple of feet or miles. I mean if you’re even in the same city, town, county, and etc. They’re made specifically to spread if they become aerosolized. And they can become aerosolized easily.

    There’s a reason why Nerve Gases are considered WMDs, and that’s because it does a significant amount of damage to both strategic military targets. And unsuspecting innocent bystanders including animal and plant life.

    It ain’t no joke, and I hope this post explains to you why Russia’s actions are extremely severe and can’t be taken lightly.


  8. tomoikari March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    I think its high time for sanctions if another country can commit chemical attacks on your soil and be smug about it.

  9. SimoHayha360 March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Enough is simply enough, Russia has been playing with fire at least since 2008. Everybody hoped that they will stop being butthurt about the fact that they lost the Cold War but as the years went by the things only got worse. It’s true Putin wants the world to know it was him, he doesn’t even try to hide his tracks anymore. He just does it and the lies about not doing it.

    If Putin wants another Cold War he can have it. Soviet Union also entered a cock measuring race with NATO/EU… And Russia is no USSR and current NATO is a much bigger and stronger organization than it was back then.

    Putin is a gambler, he took a risk when invading Georgia. He takes a risk every time he kills somebody on UKs soil (the latest guy is victim number 15). He took a risk while invading Ukraine. He takes a risk each time his submarine is spotted in territorial waters on neighboring countries, he takes a risk by not controlling Assad properly (it’s one thing to save Assad but it is something completely different to literally work hand in hand with him to break the World record of how many war crimes can be committed in a single civil war). He’s a gambler and takes risks. So far most of his risks paid out.

    So how can the West respond – simple do the same shit he’s been doing in Russia since 2000. First step nationalize any company owned by Russia oligarchs or Russian state or simply force them too pull out of the Western market. After that crack down on any organization receiving financial support from Putin. Shouldn’t be that hard, some people like Le Pen aren’t even hiding the fact that their pockets are filled with oil money from Moscow. In my book that is still called treason. Russia is literally imprisoning anyone associated to any organization financed from the West (be it a political organization or a human rights organization) but they do the same (and much worse) kind of financing all over EU (and US) and nobody does anything. Strange.

    You say well that won’t be enough those are still very mild measures. Well then do the same thing Putin did in Syria but in Ukraine. Putin basically says that he can do whatever the fuck he wants in Syria because Assad ˝officially invited˝ Russian army in. Ok then I’m sure Putin won’t have anything against Ukraine ˝officially inviting˝ NATO to help them get rid of pro Russia terrorists. Repeat the same thing in Moldova and Georgia. And if Vlad starts to get angry just say:˝Hey buddy we were officially invited by the official government of the country just like you did in Syria.˝

    And naturally there’s the option that would basically end Putin in a year or two. Stop buying oil and gas from Russia. By this point I think Europe could survive without Russian oil and gas. Sure prices would go up but if that’s the price we in Europe have to pay to get rid of Putin then I’m ready. Enough is simply enough.

    You can see Putin getting nervous whenever anyone mentions sanctions related to his only source of income.

    And in the end Russian Federation is no USSR. Whenever USSR farted in UN half of the members raised their hands. Today Russia can’t count even on 5 countries to back them up reliably. They are only relevant because of outdated veto power. And that would be my final proposition on how to end Putin, India, Japan, Germany, Brazil, at least one country from Mid East or Africa deserve to have veto powers. Or simply get rid of veto powers completely and decide things by simply voting in the general assembly.

    There are many options and my favorite is to simply stop all trade with Russia including gas and oil. I’m still amazed that EU is so unable to just put down one massive pipeline to Africa or truly invest into LNG. Sure those projects would be expensive and prices of gas would probably be a bit higher…. but you know what’s even more expensive in the long term… being almost completely reliant on one country ruled by a dictator hell bent on destroying EU (the number 1 customer filling his pockets with his only mayor source of income).

  10. Romado March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    If Russia is found to be behind this then nothing short of declaring Russia an enemy of the West will do. Either way the international community is going to shit all over Russia for even having Novichok and letting some “random guy” leave the country with it.

    This isn’t some overreaction to a bad tweet or political disagreement. If nukes were not apart of the equation we would have already declared war.

  11. rcognition March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    100% behind the UK. Fuck Russia.

  12. Dongwall March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    It would be a good, stark reminder that Russia has, and always will be, the enemy of the West and should be treated as such.

    EDIT: hey so I’d like to clear up that I have nothing against Russians personally. The Russian government is currently a lukewarm enemy of the USA, UK etc. As a soldier I hope we would never fight the Russians because I have made friends with Russian citizens working in the USA when I was younger and they were good, funny people and it would be sad to think of those people on the other side of a war. It’s just that our governments don’t see eye to eye, and when I say we will always be enemies, I’m implying that, for the foreseeable future, we will be.

  13. Unreconstructed1 March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    There is only one correct response for the U.S., the U.K. stood by us when we needed help and we have to stand by them now.

  14. DrMethodical March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Was the spy’s name Franz Ferdinand by chance?

  15. Soarinace March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Saw this comment on the /r/unitedkingdom subreddit….

    ‘Did anyone hear Radio 4 at about 08:45 this morning?

    They had a couple of Russian blokes on, unfortunately didn’t catch the names as I had only just turned the radio on. One of them genuinely said “The UK is acting like Hitler” over this, when prompted for clarification by the presenter he reiterated it and you could just tell everyone in the studio was silently thinking “what the fuck…”

    To which the other guy amusingly said “I think he has done a good job of representing his own character there”.

    But bloody hell, Theresa May is bad at so many things but on this one how can anyone really, truly believe the UKs response has been over the top so far? If anything, most people on here seem to be suggesting nothing will be done about this, which is exactly the opposite of a heavy handed approach.



    Russian MP Milanov responds to Skripal story on #r4today as follows: The UK is “behaving like Hitler”, got the nerve agent from a “fake country” like Ukraine, and his fellow guest is a “Polish prostitute”.

  16. PotGetsStirred March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    NATO should build a bunch of coal plants on Russia’s border and show them what real chemical warfare is

  17. ideletedmycomment March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    >That also prepares the ground for Britain to follow America’s example in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks on New York and Washington D.C. and invoke article 5 of the 1949 NATO treaty

    Here’s my problem with all this.

    That invoking of article 5 and subsequent actions and consequences (Afghanistan invasion, black sites/Guantanamo, Iraq invasion, Iraq collapse, rise of insurgents, expansion into Syria, Arab Spring, Libya collapse, massive migration from war zones into Europe) was a big fucking mistake. We got played like fools, drawn into multiple conflicts directly killing Muslims and setting up the circumstances that lead to over a million Muslim deaths. As a result there has been a massive increase in Muslim terrorist recruitment and funding and we are literally being killed on our own streets by random knife wielding Muslims. As a result of that people in Europe now casually talk about how all Muslims are animals, unchallenged, and we have the rise of nationalism and a form of fascism and its corresponding counter-reactions. The populations of the west, as a consequence of all that military shitshow declined to support intervening wholeheartedly in Syria and Libya and the Russians have benefited massively

    Bearing in mind that whole complete fucking unmitigated disaster that resulted from us all picking up our guns and blindly running into battle without thinking it through the last time we invoked article 5, why are we all jumping up and down baying for Russian blood, calling for the same article 5 invoking so we can blindly lash out and fuck everything up again?

  18. fastinserter March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    this too:


    >A Russian exile who was close friends with the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky has been found dead in his London home, according to friends.

    >Nikolai Glushkov was discovered by his family and friends late on Monday night, aged 68. The cause of death is not yet clear. One of his friends, the newspaper editor Damian Kudryavtsev, posted the news on his Facebook page.

    >In the 1990s, Glushkov worked for the state airline Aeroflot and Berezovsky’s LogoVAZ car company. In 1999, as Berezovsky fell out with Putin and fled to the UK, Glushkov was charged with money laundering and fraud. He spent five years in jail and was freed in 2004.

    >In recent years, Glushkov had lived in London, where he received political asylum. In 2011, he gave evidence at the court case brought by Berezovsky against his fellow oligarch Roman Abramovich, who remained on good terms with the Kremlin.

  19. MrBla March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Russia is a terrorist country. How many terror attacks russia needs to do that everyone would understand that russia is threat number to all the civilized world?

  20. Herakleios March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Issue here is Trump has already sent signals to our NATO allies he will not respect article 5.

    And why would he support the UK in this situation? Russia already attacked the US (both with cyber attacks and with military forces) and Trump did nothing. He won’t even implement the sanctions passed by like 95% of congress.

  21. _AlreadyTaken_ March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Just confiscate the oligarch’s properties in London.

  22. FarawayFairways March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    ” Downing Street has played down suggestions that this is an Article 5 matter” – BBC

    Tellingly perhaps, the YOA article isn’t able to back up its headline with a single quote attributable to the UK government to suggest that Theresa May is looking at article 5. She probably knows that it would be rebuffed anyway, but the UK has always held that NATO is a more credible bloc than any EU response.

    I think there is a very real danger here though that the UK could end up collapsing NATO if they tried to invoke article 5, as the chances of the Americans honouring it wouldn’t be strong. At a stroke they will have drawn NATO’s teeth, and that would be it. In this case the implied threat is more potent than having its bluff called

    Basically there’s too much self-interest in the EU (always will be). They’ve proven unreliable in the past. You have Russian sympathy in some quarters, and notably Germany trying to get sanctions softened. The only EU country of any consequence likely to support the UK is France, don’t forget that Putin did his best to defeat Macron, and if he hadn’t emerged left field, they might conceivably had succeeded in getting the FN elected (I doubt it in truth, but it could have been closer)

  23. SiX6X March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    why not “accidentally” blast a hole into nord stream 2. when russkis start to moan then just use their own rhetoric: “who? what? we dont know nothing. could have been aliens or latvians or whatever. you dont have any proof. just more britophobic paranoia!” etc

  24. BoChizzle March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Putin’s strategy relies on political isolation due to Brexit and Trump being in his pocket. He thinks there’s nothing we can do to retaliate against a nuclear power. However, the fact is the UK also possesses a nuclear deterrent making it untouchable in a similar way. The UK also has one of the most historically effective intelligence services and special forces in the world.

    These should be utilised to show Putin that he and his cronies cannot act with impunity. An Oligarch or two with government ties should end up dead in Moscow in a similar blatant-but-deniable fashion to show him and his evil cronies that they are not untouchable, and that retaliation is, infact, possible.

    I don’t expect this idea of the UK stooping to Putin’s level to be a popular one around here but the fact is if Putin is intent on shitting all over everything then we can’t defend ourselves without getting our hands dirty.

    edit: just a little clarification. I do not believe in an eye-for-an-eye or revenge. These actions should not be approached as a punitive measure. My opinion is that these actions by the Russian state will continue to escalate as long as the response remains weak. Responding in kind should not be viewed as an act of escalation or revenge but as a deterrent against future acts.

  25. F1CTIONAL March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Serious (economic) sanctions undoubtedly need to happen assuming we can prove Russia was involved but people really, really, **really** need to be less eager to kickstart another world war. Do you honestly realize what you are asking for? I shouldn’t have to explain why invoking Article 5 against the second largest nuclear superpower in the world is a bad idea.

  26. Bbrhuft March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    That’s going to increase Putin’s poll ratings.

  27. prove_this March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Maybe NATO should go for full out cyber war.

  28. reymt March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    I’m with the brits by principle, but wtf is NATO supposed to?

  29. hraun March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    Love, what are you wearing?

  30. gordonjames62 March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    If nato allies seek out a diplomatic response then there are many ways to have effective responses.

    Russia values trade

    Russia is sometimes lampooned as a gas station pretending to be a nation.

    Nato allied decide to buy fuel from other nato allies

    Canada and US and even OPEC ramp up fuel sales to UK and any participating nato allies.

    This is a win for Opec

    This is a win for US and Canada

    Nato allies become better trading partners.

    This is a perfect way for the US to have kind words (diplomacy) for nato allies and still put punishing tariffs on non nato countries in areas like steel and aluminum (current issue) and many future products (electronics)

    there are so many ways to use this diplomatically

    EDIT – **What Are NATO’s Articles 4 And 5?** [here](https://www.rferl.org/a/explainer-nato-articles-4-and-5/24626653.html)

  31. Scytle March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    can I just be the first to say that I don’t want to start a world war!

    There has got to be a level of response to this issue that doesn’t involve a NATO vs Russia pissing match.

    Sanctions, asset seizing, trade embargo, something….Putin is basically a mob boss, can’t we cut off his money and hope the people of Russia overthrow him?

    Was this his plan? To have NATO fraction by forcing some kind of situation where one of the NATO members would invoke the mutual action treaty and then knowing that he has his thumb on Trump he wouldn’t do anything forcing the rest of NATO to kick the US out?

    Who knows, but good lord, I don’t want to see a nuclear war start over this. I have plans for my future that don’t involve a mad max style Trumpian wasteland.

  32. oafsalot March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    If they did it, which could be called into question, then I’m all for sanctions and embargoes on russia and it’s produce/goods.

  33. kartoos March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    And what great timing to fire Rex Tillerson, who just lend strong support for Britain

  34. JiveTrain March 14, 2018 / 7:00 am

    >U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said whoever had ordered the attack must face serious consequences.

    >In a statement, he said: “We have full confidence in the UK’s investigation and its assessment that Russia was likely responsible for the nerve agent attack that took place in Salisbury last week. There is never a justification for this type of attack – the attempted murder of a private citizen on the soil of a sovereign nation

    Hahaha. I mean, not that i disagree, but the double standards with this coming from the US is nothing short of astounding.

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